# Falacy of the 97% **URL:** \ **Category:** Uncategorized\ **Created:** [October 3, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582 "2023-10-03T15:27:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![billinin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/47e85d/32.png) [@billinin](https://community.clark.com/u/billinin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/1 "2023-10-03T15:27:23Z")
> **['97% Of Climate Scientists Agree' Is 100% Wrong](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2015/01/06/97-of-climate-scientists-agree-is-100-wrong/?sh=45845cd73f9f)** > > Think about how many times you hear that 97 percent or some similar figure thrown around. It’s based on crude manipulation propagated by people whose ideological agenda it serves. It is a license to intimidate. ---
**Author:** ![NancyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@NancyM](https://community.clark.com/u/NancyM)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/2 "2023-10-03T18:55:24Z")
The article is from 2015. Maybe some things have happened in climate science since then? The author is a libertarian fossil fuel advocate. Maybe he is 97% or 100% wrong? I’ll listen to scientists, not operatives with an agenda! ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/5 "2023-10-03T20:36:37Z")
#billinin… I think it’s always a good idea to check sources before I take the information seriously. Turns out that Alex Epstein, the guy you feel has it all together on the subject of climate change, makes his living writing and speaking as an advocate for the fossil fuel industry. He is in fact not a scientist but a philosopher and computer geek who [embraces the practice of Objectivism](https://youtu.be/asery3UeBj4). That’s probably why his ideas wander so far from the reality most of us live in. 🙂 [![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/clark/original/2X/8/8a1802d82f0c87d101e5fa2128fe3e8e6429908f.jpeg "Ayn Rand - Her Philosophy in Two Minutes") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asery3UeBj4) ---
**Author:** ![NancyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@NancyM](https://community.clark.com/u/NancyM)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/7 "2023-10-04T01:50:37Z")
Nope. Waste of time. Years of scientific data, analysis, and consensus vs. a libertarian “_I want to mess things up and nobody is going to tell me what to do or make me clean up my mess_” teenage mentality. You assume that his political agenda has equal merit with decades of scientific data. The two are not on equal footing at all. Why refute him with scientific evidence, which he doesn’t believe? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![NancyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@NancyM](https://community.clark.com/u/NancyM)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 2:02am UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/8 "2023-10-04T02:02:19Z")
Ayn Rand, sigh. I read her in my late teens/early 20’s. And while her books are badly written, the philosophy is something to think about…and then move on from as one matures and lives in the real world. She makes some very interesting points about selfishness and individuality and capitalism that are worth evaluating, and I don’t totally disagree with her. But some young people adopt this almost as a religion, become libertarians, and that’s it for them – they are 50 years old with the same ideas they read when they were 19. I read somewhere that when Ayn Rand was older, she actually collected and lived on Social Security. Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 2:53pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/9 "2023-10-04T14:53:30Z")
> [@NancyM](#): > > I read somewhere that when Ayn Rand was older, she actually collected and lived on Social Security. Hmmm… The unproven story goes that she received SS through her husband’s account. But, according to the first tenant of objectivism, acting in one’s own self-interest is a noble endeavor. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/10 "2023-10-04T17:06:01Z")
> [@ratbert2k](#): > > It shouldn’t be too hard to debunk the things he says then. Right? Right? That’s easy… He uses his own hypothetical scenarios to “prove” to his believers that he is accurate in his assessment of a particular point. **Begin** excerpt from Epstein’s rant —\>_Here are two questions to ask anyone who pulls the 97% trick._ _ **1. What exactly do the climate scientists agree on?** _ _Usually, the person will have a very vague answer like “climate change is real.”_ _Which raises the question: What is that supposed to mean? That climate changes? That we have some impact? That we have a large impact? That we have a catastrophically large impact? That we have such a catastrophic impact that we shouldn’t use fossil fuels?_ **\<—End** excerpt from Epstein’s rant Then Epstein goes on, not to argue real facts, but to discredit his own made-up Q&A’s. And if you were to diagram his logic throughout his rant, you would find many “then a miracle happens” bubbles in the sequence. People like Epstein make a living telling people what they want to hear, regardless of the facts of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/12 "2023-10-05T15:23:15Z")
> [@ratbert2k](#): > > I’m not sure why this qualifies as a rant in your mind, or how the rest of his article discredits this. Are we reading the same article? You oughta check out sources before you jump onto their bandwagon, you are backing a [phony “philosopher/scientist” who’s also a dyed-in-wool racist.](https://documented.net/investigations/alex-epstein-fossil-future) ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 3:49pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/14 "2023-10-05T15:49:30Z")
> [@ratbert2k](#): > > I’m not backing him. I’m just pointing out what his argument is and that no one seems to have refuted it. The reason I won’t spend the time required to refute this guy’s biased rhetoric is because I am not an expert in the analysis and classification of peer-reviewed scientific documents. I’m willing to take the word of multiple expert sources who have done that work. If you choose to ignore those sources and believe an unqualified guy with so obvious a bias and motivation to color the facts to suit the fossil fuel industry, that’s your choice, it’s a free country, have at it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/15 "2023-10-05T16:05:19Z")
> [@ratbert2k](#): > > Even if you believe all the horrible things written in hit pieces about a person (which you shouldn’t, but that’s another post), you ought to be able to explain the flaws in the person’s argument. The person making the argument is irrelevant to the point. Real hard facts are best evidence to refute Epstein’s “expert analyses”, here they are: ![CO2 vs Temp](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/clark/original/2X/5/5eb7ee371ca217b25d7a72ac1b14b9fe7084c1d2.gif) ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/17 "2023-10-05T16:07:49Z")
I suggest you look at the graph I just posted. Global temps have increased along with CO2 since his Jan 2015 article. Do ya really think next year will be cooler? ---
**Author:** ![NancyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@NancyM](https://community.clark.com/u/NancyM)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/19 "2023-10-05T18:03:58Z")
It is his political and personal opinion (from 2015). So nothing science has to say will refute it in his eyes. Are we supposed to refute it for your benefit and to your satisfaction (ratbert2k)? I’m not sure who we are supposed to refute his points for. ---
**Author:** ![geezerpk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@geezerpk](https://community.clark.com/u/geezerpk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/20 "2023-10-05T20:26:58Z")
You know, I just can’t get too excited about the validity of the 97% agreement. If only 90%, 85.6% or 75% agree, that’s good enough for me. And if man made change is responsible for only 30% or 50% or whatever the change, that’s way too much and will lead the planet to disaster within a relatively short period. And climate change isn’t the only danger of continued and expanding use of fossil fuels. There are a lot of other byproducts of fossil fuels that are dangerous to the health and well-being of the animal and plant populations on this planet. Any short or long-term plans or policies that don’t support the eventual elimination of the use of fossil fuels need to be put on the shelf. ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/21 "2023-10-05T20:53:20Z")
> [@ratbert2k](#): > > That’s not even the same topic. The topic is whether and about what “97% of scientists agree.” #1. Your buddy, the philosopher/scientist appears to have purposefully misled you and like-minded pro fossil-fuel enthusiasts. When he wrote “there is nothing remotely in the literature saying 97% agree we should ban most fossil fuel use.” That statement is true… BUT… Epstein presents that statement while implying that the report’s supporters are making what is his own fabricated premise. Then he goes on to discredit his own made-up false argument… and you fall for it… because he is saying what you want to hear. #2. More and more evidence is piling up that supports the facts, and those facts are starting to make a difference in our lives. The main worry I have is that the delay (latency) that is inherent in the cause-and-effect cycle of the thing swings in the favor of climate deniers who insist on a “show-me” scenario. That natural human tendency for physical proof beyond a reasonable doubt could prove to be the demise of life on earth. ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/22 "2023-10-05T21:00:16Z")
> [@geezerpk](#): > > whatever the change, that’s way too much and will lead the planet to disaster within a relatively short period. I think there’s a good chance that once everyone gets behind the effort to fix things we’ll have a chance. Stuff like CO2 storage, expulsion and conversion has lots of possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![H200h](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e79b87/32.png) [@H200h](https://community.clark.com/u/H200h)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2023, 3:33am UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/24 "2023-10-06T03:33:07Z")
> [@ratbert2k](#): > > Thanks for your reply, such as it is. I’m not really interested in discussing people or their internal thoughts. I’m glad we can agree that Alex’s statement is true. The text conveys a true, but irrelevant statement. The intent of the statement is to deceive the reader and convey the false premise that what Alex says is what his opposition said. He’s just a very skilled liar. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Hen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/community.clark.com/a_hen/32/239_2.png) [@A\_Hen](https://community.clark.com/u/A_Hen)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2023, 11:01am UTC](https://community.clark.com/t/falacy-of-the-97/3582/25 "2023-10-09T11:01:28Z")
Believe what you want, but personally, I believe scientists over partisans when it comes to anything scientific (climate, viruses, etc.) Not only do I believe them, but I can see what’s happening with the extreme weather we’re having all over the planet. It’s funny to say it’s based on “crude manipulation propagated by people whose ideological agenda it serves,” when the person making the statement does so based on their ideological agenda. Oh, the irony.